Ningxia riddle

[chinoook]

Hi Michael,

Originally Posted by Yemenmike

Yes Chinook, I do need an explanation as to the "Ningxia Riddle", , If you can give me the background and requirements, I can see what i can do for you, when I am in Yinchuan next.

Ok.
Ningxia is _very_ well protected by GW. As you can see on our map (and on about every GW map at all) the Ningixa Wall forms "shoulders", from the west it guards over the Yellow River, building an absolutely safe border. It is hard to imagine that attackers could both cross the river sucessfully and surmount the wall. On the east shoulder we find about the highest walls and with very high towers every 300m, the wall being a double wall here.
The western flank of north Ninxia is well protected by the Helan Mountains, which are apparently impassable for an attacker, especially on horesbacks. The rare passes through the mountains are guarded by (very short) effective Wall sections. Member Kim has visisted one of them and as we can see this are no real dangers to the safeness of Ningxia.
What is the riddle? The north of Ningxia is right on a "highway" from Mongolia, an attacker just has to follow the Yellow River, even on both sides. So far we did not find any protective installation. The very narrow north, where the Helan Mountains meet the River there are some indications of Walls (can be seen on our map), but nothing compared to the rest of the Ningxia walls (wich are about the highest and best preserved walls of the entire GW). It is absolutely unthinkable that there had not been anything. Where have the forts/fortresses been? Wich was the main defense line (ore where there many)? Yinchuan itself had been one of the "Nine border garrisons of the Ming".
We have found GW maps which show these lines but we could not identify them on GE. Some maps (even in good books!) show wall on the Helan Mountain ridge what I personally don't believe.
The fortification of the Ordos had been built with such a high effort, nothing compared to that in the north of Ningxia.
Furthermore Ningxia has been a major invasion point where 1226/1267 AD the Mongols invaded and eradicated the Xixia empire (and killed about all of the Ningxia inhabitants). From there they conquered whole China and established the Yuan Dynasty. The strategic importance of Ningxia is evident. The impact of the Mongol invasion was the reason the Ming guys built walls with such a high effort we today see in the best preserved, highest and strongest walls (the Beijing walls!).
Even on the east bank of the Yellow River we did not find any fortification at all. Where did it go? We see walls at the Yellow River bank in areas which are about impossible to reach by horsemen and we do not see _anything_ here, were the Yellow River bank is absolutely flat and easy accessable from the Ordos.

Our map there still contains many wrong or even unclear findings, only some beacon towers will prove to be "real" findings. The walls found by us are either something else than GW or at least absolutely insufficient for the protection of this important weak point.

It is possible that there is information in local museums, it is _very_ probable that in Ningxia there are people who know the solution of this issue.
I myself have spent nights by searching for the defense lines on GE. In such intensively used farmland it is very hard for a wall to survive but there _must_ be still some indications left. We hope you can help us to find them.


-chinoook

[Kim]

You can see my pictures on Google Earth here:

39° 4'7.44"N 106°21'14.67"E

and here:

39° 3'27.57"N 106°19'21.24"E

There's a nice section here: 39° 3'9.71"N 106°19'2.14"E but it seems a bit dangerous to climb up there.

When I visited Ningxia last year on a business trip I was told that some deteriorated walls can be found northeast of Shizuishan, but I didn't have time to go there also. They are shown on Ningxia maps and also in our GE map file.

[Yemenmike]

Hi Chinook.

Thanks for the detailed information re the missing sections of the GW.

Now I may be repeating something you have already considered - here goes.

I have been looking carefully at the path of the Yellow River and come to the following thoughts.

The plain over which the river flows over is relatively flat - looking at the contours and elevation detail on GE.
There are numerous shadows of past lakes, old river beds and sedimentation deposits all along the banks of the river. Again these shadows can be clearly seen on GE.
The floodplain in some places is as much as 10 to 15km wide.
I have also looked at some of the many photographs of the area, which show how flat and wide the river plain is.
Now I have come to the conclusion, that we need to look at the ancient path of the Yellow river, through the centuries. The river is well known throughout history for changing it's course and is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of people who live on it's banks.
This is partly due to the vast amount of sediment it washes down from the surrounding area (hence the name Yellow river).

It is within the bounds of possibility that

a - the original mud, hard packed and adobe walls have been completely eroded away by the rivers natural flooding and course changes.

b - the path of the river has altered so much that the supposition that the wall was used in conjunction with the river as a defence line, is true, but the actual wall remains are now far away from the original course of the river as it is now.

Surely, when the rebuilding of the wall was done during the Ming era, the importance of the gate to and through Ningxia, would have been included in the defence plans.

Obviously when I get up into the area, I can see the river course changes at first hand. But maybe just a thought to consider.

I have looked at the main GW files and am very impressed at the sheer volume of work and attention to detail (it could also be described as a work of love ( ) - ( ).

Take care

regards

Michael

[andarchen]

Hi , Chinoook
Here is the way i develope my GW&fortresses map in Chinese:
Base the GW path you three guys made , i verify it by means of reading the book in 1987 named "On-site investigating report of Ming GW " , and using BaiDu electronic map to find all locations book mentioned . You might use same way with your Chinese partner help to solving Ningxia riddle .
I would like to join solving Ningxia riddle as long as it does not affect the developing progress of my GW map in Chinese.

Book link : http://www.meet-greatwall.org/zhuanzhu/wen/mcck.htm
Baidu map link : http://map.baidu.com/#

[Kim]

Originally Posted by andarchen

Hi , Chinoook
Here is the way i develope my GW&fortresses map in Chinese:
Base the GW path you three guys made , i verify it by means of reading the book in 1987 named "On-site investigating report of Ming GW " , and using BaiDu electronic map to find all locations book mentioned . You might use same way with your Chinese partner help to solving Ningxia riddle .
I would like to join solving Ningxia riddle as long as it does not affect the developing progress of my GW map in Chinese.

Book link : http://www.meet-greatwall.org/zhuanzhu/wen/mcck.htm
Baidu map link : http://map.baidu.com/#

How about our friends at the Chinese Great Wall forum, maybe they have some detailed information regarding the Ningxia area?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by andarchen

Hi , Chinoook
Here is the way i develope my GW&fortresses map in Chinese:
Base the GW path you three guys made , i verify it by means of reading the book in 1987 named "On-site investigating report of Ming GW " , and using BaiDu electronic map to find all locations book mentioned . You might use same way with your Chinese partner help to solving Ningxia riddle .
I would like to join solving Ningxia riddle as long as it does not affect the developing progress of my GW map in Chinese.

Book link : http://www.meet-greatwall.org/zhuanzhu/wen/mcck.htm
Baidu map link : http://map.baidu.com/#

Thank you for the book information and link. It sounds very interesting! Does the book contain maps and/or GPS coordinates?

[andarchen]

Originally Posted by Kim

How about our friends at the Chinese Great Wall forum, maybe they have some detailed information regarding the Ningxia area?

As my observation ,GW fans in Chinese GW forum aren't used to discuss GW using GE , discussing publicly about looking somewhere of using GE is still sensitive in China .
As for the last question you asked about Heliukou GW , because of your question belongs to "why" rather than "where" ,so i submitted it to Chinese GW forum with GE image.
Anyway , to use the book and BaiDu i mentioned is the most efficient way to find GW .

[andarchen]

Originally Posted by greatwallforum

Thank you for the book information and link. It sounds very interesting! Does the book contain maps and/or GPS coordinates?

You are welcome , i just knew this book's link , and its link in web showed text only .

[chinoook]

Hi Michael,

it is fun to see you are getting into these discussions, which at the end will improve our all understanding of both, GW and the landscape.

Originally Posted by Yemenmike

I have been looking carefully at the path of the Yellow River and come to the following thoughts.

The plain over which the river flows over is relatively flat - looking at the contours and elevation detail on GE.
There are numerous shadows of past lakes, old river beds and sedimentation deposits all along the banks of the river. Again these shadows can be clearly seen on GE.
The floodplain in some places is as much as 10 to 15km wide.
I have also looked at some of the many photographs of the area, which show how flat and wide the river plain is.
Now I have come to the conclusion, that we need to look at the ancient path of the Yellow river, through the centuries. The river is well known throughout history for changing it's course and is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of people who live on it's banks.

Your are right about the frequent changing of the rivers's course. But you are wrong assuming that happened in Ningxia or Inner Mongolia. The course changes you are referring to happened after the Yellow River left the Loess Plateau. The vanishing of the clay/adobe walls is mainly due to wind and weather erosion, helped also by farmers who used the materials or just ploughed the remnants down. The still visible Wall section Kim mentioned above is a good example. It vanishes somewhere in the fields with no more indication at all. The "floodplain" today (and very probably in Ming times also) is irrigated land of intensive agriculture. Of course the plain has been formed by the river and of course there had been different courses but I do not believe this happened in historic times.

[qoute]This is partly due to the vast amount of sediment it washes down from the surrounding area (hence the name Yellow river).
[/quote]

I read that the Yellow River was called different in historic times and there are strong indications that the erosion of the Loess Plateau began in Ming times, becoming severe in Qing Dynasty (as a consequence of the Qing population explosion).

It is within the bounds of possibility that

a - the original mud, hard packed and adobe walls have been completely eroded away by the rivers natural flooding and course changes.

I negate flooding erosion did destroy the wall here. For example look at the east bank ( 38°22'18.61"N 106°26'25.54"E), where the wall is very close to the river and no (flooding) erosion visible at all.

b - the path of the river has altered so much that the supposition that the wall was used in conjunction with the river as a defence line, is true, but the actual wall remains are now far away from the original course of the river as it is now.

I do not believe this.

The vanishing of the defense structures is in my eyes done by the population. We probably will have to accept that there is not much left today. Hopefully we can find historic sources to understand who the Ningxia Riddle could be solved. I still have the hope that being locally one could see items which are not prominent in GE. Single remnants could reveal the whole story.

I increasingly see the necessity to talk to a geographer/geologist who is specialized in both the changing of river beds (and erosion developement) and vegetation changes in historic times. A lot of understanding of the GW will be dependent on both.


-chinoook

[Kim]

Originally Posted by andarchen

Hi , Chinoook
Here is the way i develope my GW&fortresses map in Chinese:
Base the GW path you three guys made , i verify it by means of reading the book in 1987 named "On-site investigating report of Ming GW " , and using BaiDu electronic map to find all locations book mentioned . You might use same way with your Chinese partner help to solving Ningxia riddle .
I would like to join solving Ningxia riddle as long as it does not affect the developing progress of my GW map in Chinese.

Book link : http://www.meet-greatwall.org/zhuanzhu/wen/mcck.htm
Baidu map link : http://map.baidu.com/#

Does it have any relation to this book?

http://www.meet-greatwall.org/zhuanz...n/Contents.htm