What are these?

[chinoook]

The idea of nomenclature improvements is not lost. It is on my working list.

One more type of tower I am still unaware what it was ist this kind:

A "normal" tower with 5 (6/7/8?) "ovens" at its side (a picture of what I mean can be found in Daniel Schwarz: "The Great Wall of China", p.182).

I still do not have any idea, what kind of "ovens" those are. Daniel Schwarz calls them "a row of fire- and smoke-producing ovens".
I dont believe that since these ovens are sometimes aligned parallel to the wall (the photo mentioned above), sometimes perpendicular. If they had been used for coding information they should have been good to see from the next watchtowers ... Another oddness is that they are somewhere abundant (the mentioned site at Jiayuguan (cf. 39°52'22.93"N 98°17'39.57"E, 39°52'39.53"N 98°18'27.58"E, 39°52'58.16"N 98°19'19.82"E, 39°53'29.17"N 98°20'17.73"E and so on), where _every_ tower has such items. At different locations only very few or thust single ones are found: 39°48'23.97"N 99°27'46.89"E; 37°20'10.61"N 103°58'4.79"E.
I remember to have seen even more out in China but also on GE. The next time I encounter such a tower I will write it in this post, so me might get a small collection or even a .kmz file of those.

Has anyone of you an idea, what kind of "ovens" those are? Smoke- and fire-producing? Kilns (_very_ improbable since all the shown locations did _not_ have any bricks used). Anything else?


-chinoook

[Bryan]

Might these ovens have been used to produce warmth for people stationed in the tower? It doesn't make sense, though, why there would be as many as 8 of them lined up ... it's an interesting question!

[chinoook]

Originally Posted by greatwallforum

Might these ovens have been used to produce warmth for people stationed in the tower?

Never ever. The ones I have walked along (Jiayuguan) are more as high as a person and somewhat closed. I thougt of ovens for pottery, but why aligned and why should all tower inhabitants of Jiayuguan do pottery in their spare time ...


-chinoook

[andarchen]

Oven was used for towerwatchers to send information to remote towers or resident troops hundred miles away, they produced smoke during day ,fire during night .
As for how many smoke/fire should be produced ,it depends on amount of approaching enemy ,and that is reason why 5 (6/7/8?) evens aligned parallel to the wall.

[chinoook]

Originally Posted by andarchen

Oven was used for towerwatchers to send information to remote towers or resident troops hundred miles away, they produced smoke during day ,fire during night .
As for how many smoke/fire should be produced ,it depends on amount of approaching enemy ,and that is reason why 5 (6/7/8?) evens aligned parallel to the wall.

But that is the clue! First of all these towers (the ones I showed at Jiayuguan) were only some hundred meters away and more important, the ovens are parallel (!) to the wall so remote watchtowers could not tell how many smoke signals or fires had been lightened. The ovens also are closed (an opening at the top) so fires could not bee seen from remote locations.

I do not believe this interpretation.

Fires are supposed to be lifted up on top of the beacon towers and not to be somewhere down on the ground. One more argument against this thesis.


-chinoook

[andarchen]

1.the ones you showed at Jiayuguan are the beacon tower, as what you call "oven" . most beacon towers you had seen were no bricks embrace due to bricks was dismantled by villagers to build their own houses ,
2.great wall is curve path rather than stright ,so remote tower can distinguish number of smoke/fire lift .

all explanations what i replayed are supposed even just means beacon tower .

[Bryan]

This photo will help illustrate towers and ovens.

The Great Wall in this area never had any bricks except for fortresses, which used adobe bricks.

It seems like these ovens would be for signaling except that they are lined up parallel to the wall. If they were perpendicular then I would be convinced. But since they are parallel I can't figure them out. It's as if they were intended to signal someone far away from the wall (which is pretty straight for long distances in the desert, unlike the winding paths through the mountains).

The number of ovens used corresponding with the size of the attack sounds right. And I am not convinced that they would necessarily be on top of the Wall. They would be better protected behind it where they are located.

[chinoook]

Originally Posted by andarchen

1.the ones you showed at Jiayuguan are the beacon tower, as what you call "oven" . most beacon towers you had seen were no bricks embrace due to bricks was dismantled by villagers to build their own houses ,

Well, I walked by there. Did you do the same? The wall there never had bricks. I studied the Gansu Great Wall more than every other GW.

2.great wall is curve path rather than stright ,so remote tower can distinguish number of smoke/fire lift .

all explanations what i replayed are supposed even just means beacon tower .

The shown wall at Jiayuguan is lined up very well. There are no bends. There are no visible remote beacon towers there and probably never have been.

Tomorrow I will show photos of the ovens there.


-chinoook

[chinoook]

Originally Posted by greatwallforum

This photo will help illustrate towers and ovens.

Thx for showing, it makes it clear.

The number of ovens used corresponding with the size of the attack sounds right. And I am not convinced that they would necessarily be on top of the Wall. They would be better protected behind it where they are located.

This is not convincing. First, about all "beacon towers" should have had a signalling device. At least the remote ones. Most of them do not show this kind of "oven". Second, all signalling devices should have had been lifted up in order to be able to bee seen from far away. Third, a fire inside these ovens are not visible. Only smoke. But how to tell wich oven sent smoke from far away (kilometers away) if the ovens are within 20 meters?

No, those have not been signalling devices.


-chinoook

[Bryan]

The photo in the book is not too clear. The ovens (it that's what they really are) are pretty far away. It does show a freestanding tower on the opposite side of the ovens from the wall. Maybe that's a clue. Unfortunately, the area indicated (39°52'N 98°31'E) is not very high resolution on Google Earth at this time. But ... the coordinates in the book are questionable. Look at the "first tower" coords on page 185 (39°41'N 97°58'E). It's about 21 kilometers away from the easily-located spot where the image was actually taken (about 39°44'33"N 98°12'10"E). But the wall does pass right by the indicated location (39°52'N 98°31'E) of the ovens.

I wonder why Schwartz called them "fire- and smoke-producing ovens" and more importantly, I wonder what they really are! We must find out! Could these have been ovens used to bake adobe bricks used to build the towers?

I hope your photos are better than the one in the book.