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  • Review: Possible Bei Qi locations

    I have been reading some Great Wall books recently, they mention:-

    Northern Qi Wall is rebuilt by Ming, from Laoying to Xiaguan.
    Pianguan Pass to Xiaguan Pass is Bei Qi
    Niangziguan to Huangyangguan is Bei Qi
    Northern Qi Wall in Shanxi from Lishi northwards for 300KM
    Juyongguan to Datong 450KM is Bei Qi
    Mutianyu and Huangyaguan Ming Walls are built on Northern Qi Wall

  • #2
    Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

    Could you find any evidence on GE imagery for these walls?


    -chinoook


    Originally posted by Ken View Post
    I have been reading some Great Wall books recently, they mention:-

    Northern Qi Wall is rebuilt by Ming, from Laoying to Xiaguan.
    Pianguan Pass to Xiaguan Pass is Bei Qi
    Niangziguan to Huangyangguan is Bei Qi
    Northern Qi Wall in Shanxi from Lishi northwards for 300KM
    Juyongguan to Datong 450KM is Bei Qi
    Mutianyu and Huangyaguan Ming Walls are built on Northern Qi Wall
    chinoook's 1st law: Structurally weak walls tend to have double structures.
    chinoook's 2nd law: Newer walls are built next older walls, not over them.
    chinoook's 3rd law: Similar problems lead to similar solutions.

    The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of people, who have not viewed the world. (Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859), German naturalist and explorer)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

      I have read of several places in the Beijing area where Ming walls were built upon Bei Qi walls.
      Bryan

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

        Originally posted by Bryan View Post
        I have read of several places in the Beijing area where Ming walls were built upon Bei Qi walls.
        I have dozends of sources claiming that the Qin wall was built on top of a lot of things, the Ming wall was as well. I found different things when I investigated by myself. It is striking that even late Ming walls seem to rather avoid early Ming walls than to rebuild them.
        I am supercritical on every written sentence about rebuilding walls without any evidence. I can tell dozends of walls built right next to any predecessor but trying to avoid direct contact. Recently (by us) found Ming/Qin interaction shows rather crossing than following the earlier lines.


        -chinoook
        chinoook's 1st law: Structurally weak walls tend to have double structures.
        chinoook's 2nd law: Newer walls are built next older walls, not over them.
        chinoook's 3rd law: Similar problems lead to similar solutions.

        The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of people, who have not viewed the world. (Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859), German naturalist and explorer)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

          GE imagery is not clear enough to determine the walls yet. Unfortunately, most of the sources we get now are secondary from books. The authors' knowledge and expertise are suspect. I have seen many mistakes in the photographs; for example depicting Han Walls when actually they are Ming Walls.

          Yes, Chinoook, I have seen Double-wall structures during my visits to the Great Wall.
          For example, the Ming-Han Wall in Gansu; the Ming-Qin Wall in
          Ningxia; the Ming-Sui Wall in Ningxia.
          The supposed double Ming-Northern Wei in Shanxi was unseen.
          From this, it seems that the Ming were aware of the locations
          of earlier dynasty walls. Was it a coincidence that the Ming Wall
          was built behind these early dynasty walls or that the Ming Wall
          was built to utilise these early dynasty walls or it followed
          naturally according to the Ming border?

          It has always baffled me Chinoook, that as you said, did the Dynasties really repaired other dynasty's walls?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

            I have seen good evidence at Shuiguan that the Ming wall was built upon a Northern Qi wall, for at its south end, the Ming wall ends and the Bei Qi wall continues.

            [QUOTE=Bryan;13171]From the Shuiguan pass gate to the end of the Great Wall to the south (October 2010)

            [center]
            Here you can see where the Ming Dynasty builders stopped and the Northern Qi wall continues
            40
            Bryan

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

              In Hebei there are several examples of how sections of the (Early Ming) wall was moved to follow another path in the late Ming period. In all the examples I can think of (Eastern Hebei) it was always done to move the wall to a strategically better position to improve the line of defence - maybe except for Huachangyu which is a bit confusing.

              At several locations there are clear evidence that the wall was widened at some point, but of cause it can be difficult the know exactly if the original wall was an Early Ming or Bei Qi wall.

              In the flat desert it might not make a big difference if a new wall was moved away from an earlier wall, but if an old wall in mountains already followed the best strategical ridge it would make good sense to rebuilt it and reuse the older wall. But there are also several examples of the Ming and Bei Qi wall crossing each other.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

                Originally posted by Bryan View Post
                I have seen good evidence at Shuiguan that the Ming wall was built upon a Northern Qi wall, for at its south end, the Ming wall ends and the Bei Qi wall continues.
                Not in our map! To reconstruct the difficult Qi wall it would be helpful, if _any_ location known is contained there!


                -chinoook
                chinoook's 1st law: Structurally weak walls tend to have double structures.
                chinoook's 2nd law: Newer walls are built next older walls, not over them.
                chinoook's 3rd law: Similar problems lead to similar solutions.

                The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of people, who have not viewed the world. (Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859), German naturalist and explorer)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

                  Bringing this back to life with a couple of questions.

                  1. Bryan - do you know for sure that the stretch of wall at Shuiguan is really Bei Qi?
                  2. Does anyone know if Bei Qi used rammed earth around Beijing (specifically near Badaling)?

                  There is more rammed earth there than I would have thought, including at least three small forts.

                  Most of it is along a line I personally suspect might be Bei Qi.

                  If the pic in Bryan's image really does represent Bei Qi building style then I think there's quite a bit to be seen in the area W of Badaling. Even more so if there is evidence BQ used RE.

                  Any clues?
                  If you're tired of the Great Wall, you're tired of life.
                  Journeys, &c

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

                    I meant to add that I read recently (online, dubious source) that there was supposedly Bei Qi wall running from Nankou all the way to Datong.
                    If you're tired of the Great Wall, you're tired of life.
                    Journeys, &c

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Possible Bei Qi locations

                      Originally posted by bianfuxia View Post
                      1. Bryan - do you know for sure that the stretch of wall at Shuiguan is really Bei Qi?
                      I don't. It could easily be from the Ming Dynasty. As discussed above, sources are suspect unless verified, be they books, maps, etc. It would be nice to know for sure about these questionable places. Shentangyu is another one.
                      Bryan

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